Posts by Cold Steel

3

Jehovah's Witnesses Foundational Claims...What Are the Selling Points?

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Well all of that is highly debatable, but the membership by and large have bought it lock, stock and barrel.

Several doctrines are bizarre and some are just plain wrong. Consider:

Man doesn't have an immortal spirit, but at death ceases to exist. Granted, other Adventist movements buy into this doctrine, but it's highly controversial. When ancient Christian libraries were discovered circa 1947, this doctrine suffered some serious setbacks. Even though they're apocryphal, they indicate that the first century Christians believed that man has a spirit. In other words, this doctrine is by no means settled.
Genesis 6:1-2: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." JWs believe that angels "materialized" and had sexual intercouse with mortal women. This ridiculous exegesis came from a silly fictional apocryphal source.
Armageddon: Previously mentioned. The JW exegesis interprets this as a worldwide conflagration where Satan stages his last great assault on Jehovah's people. Actually, it takes place in Jerusalem and is an assault against the sons of Judah. (Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39)
Faithful and Discreet Slave. We all know about this one, and the presumptuous interpretation that's been made, specifically, that it refers to a group of people who have not been called or ordained.

Well, the list could go on, but you get my drift. The question is how the Jehovah's Witnesses can possibly claim to be Jehovah's kingdom on Earth? We Latter-day Saints can point to angelic ministrations and the restoration of apostolic authority, all witnessed by at least one other person. LDS Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: "The Church has been organized, by divine revelation, angels have appeared, the apostolic authority has been restored by the ministration of angels, and the kingdom of God has been set up in fulfillment of the promise made to the ancient Prophet Daniel—a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, never again be rooted out of the earth and never be committed to another people, but it shall continue forever...."

The Seventh Day Adventists claimed that Ellen G. White received revelation regarding seventh-day worship. She also claimed miraculous occurrences. Her visions and revelations were something she could point to and claim authority. Her website states that " From the time she was 17 years old until she died 70 years later, God gave her approximately 2,000 visions and dreams. The visions varied in length from less than a minute to nearly four hours."

The Catholics and the Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) claim apostolic authority in an unbroken chain going back to the apostles and Catholicism is now claiming many revelations from Fatima to others like Saint Malachy.

All the above cite their reasons for believing that they represent God's kingdom on Earth. But the JWs insist that all manmade religions are in error. Yet they can't produce any claims to apostolic authority, to bind in Heaven and Earth. No revelations, no visions, no dreams, no theophanies. So how would they know they were chosen by Jehovah in 1919?

16

JW booth in Flea Market @ St. Augustine Florida

by Pterist in

my wife and i took the grand kids to a flea market in st. augustine, florida today 1/19.

after sucking down some hot dogs on a bright sunny cold day, i came across a jw booth set up with the latest mags and books, offering free bible studies.

i decided not to confront them, and spoil such a nice day, however, i will be forearmed with printed material if we go back again.. shalom.

Cold Steel

I don't know anything about the flea market, but I know the lighthouse in St. Augustine is haunted as hell. Anyone who doesn't believe in God or the paranormal should drop by and ask about it. I used to live in Florida years ago and the lighthouse is well known. You can be in there alone (or so you think) and then you'll see a moving shadow. Looks just like a person, 3D and everything, but it's blacker than the shadows. You can also hear voices...very distinct voices too. Sometimes you can hear individual words though the gist is difficult to piece. Sometimes it's a man's voice, other times it's a woman's voice. Looking up, you can sometimes see a head sticking down and looking at you, but when you get to the top, there's no one there and nowhere to go!

There's also lots of cold spots. Go by the visitor's center and ask. The guides won't go in after dark. Don't let it being haunted stop you from going. As was noted by Shirley Jackson in The Haunting of Hill House, not every day is Halloween.

As for the JW booth at the market, is it a flea market or a flee market? Ha...couldn't resist.

8

Four Hypothetical Questions

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Mother-in-laws. Same in every religion. Ha!

53

Would this work? Be honest. Brutal if necessary.

by okage in

i feel i must preface this with context so as to make the intention understandable: .

to jehovah's witnesses and their apologists, that goal is destruction of truth and the downfall of jehovah's witnesses.

but that's not our goal.

Cold Steel

I'm not here to belittle JWs...just to find out how they tick and how many levels of thought go into their theology and eschatology. In the 70s, I was impressed by their knowledge of the Bible and their tenacity in getting in the door. Now that's changed. They've got the Watchtower article, but their Bibles are no longer worn with age and use, and marked. And when I answer the door, they're more anxious to leave than I am to let them! The only exception is when some found out my wife is Persian. Some just learned the language and drop by to see if it works. My wife wants them to go find other Persians. (She despises all religion.)

Modern Witnesses are highly superficial, having only one or two levels they can go. In the 70s, I had a couple by for Bible study and they continued coming for six or seven months. We became good friends and were never adversarial, and they even read some of my religious material and made notes in the outer margins, so I know they didn't just dump it in the nearest recepticle. To this day I wonder if they're still alive, active, what they're doing. But they were a different breed. When they first came in, they were hot, sweaty and tired, and we had a nice chat and cold sodas. When they last came it was snowing outside and they complained of the cold.

There are some here who are anti-JW -- primarily because, in many cases, they dedicated their lives to something they later became convinced was a cult. Some have been personally abused, others shunned, and still others have become Evangelicals or atheists. I've left many what I thought were easy questions for anyone who's religious to answer, and have been frustrated to find that the question was at Level 3, and many here are Level 2, tops. The topic of Armageddon just stops them in their tracks, as they know what the Watchtower and Awake! magazines say, but are utterly clueless on the biblical angle. It's hardly rocket science. Whether this is because most think that the end must be so close that they don't study anymore, or they've just become hooked on the magazines that they've lost the ability to learn the scriptures I honestly don't know.

That's my take. Of course, most true JWs most likely lurk and don't post.

8

Four Hypothetical Questions

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Wait a minute. If you're already drawing a military pension, you have to give it up? Did I get that right?

Regarding the brother baptizing his brother, who, exactly, has the authority to baptize in the church? Anciently, these Keys of the Kingdom, binding on Heaven and on Earth, were given to Peter and the apostles. Now are they claimed by the WBTS?

Jesus said that he who believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He never said a person could be baptized in one's heart. We also know that the Galatian saints were baptizing people vicariously for the dead (1 Cor. 15:29), something Paul never condemned or criticized. If they thought baptism was so necessary that they had to have it for their dead. Epiphanius states: "In this country–I mean Asia and even in Galatia–their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized." (Heresies 8:7) One scholar notes: " St. Chrysostom tells of how the Marcionites, when one of their catechumens died without baptism, would place a living person under the dead man’s bed and ask whether he desired to be baptized. The living person would respond in the affirmative and was then baptized as a proxy for the deceased. (Homily XL on 1 Corinthians 15)"

So baptism was taken pretty seriously. And though there are many people in the world who have not been baptized, they also have not taken the gospel to heart, so what will become of them?

What I hear you saying is that one must be first questioned or cleared for baptism, then done under supervision. I didn't know the part about the anointed class not having clout. In a way, aren't they part of the faithful and discreet slave?

Let's change the hypothetical a bit. Instead of just baptizing his brother, he notifies the local Kingdom Hall and says his brother is dying...can he baptize him? Could they do everything required in a day or two, perhaps a week, if the person is dying?

If it were you, Larsinger58, what would YOU do? Let's say your brother really wanted to be baptized despite your telling him he didn't need it. Would you baptize him?

Finally, if Jehovah, as the judge of the quick and the dead, recognized the baptism, wouldn't he be bypassing his own organization on Earth? And what's the worst that could happen if your elders or overseer found out you had participated in an unauthorized baptism? Would they disfellowship, shun or reprimand you?

Thanks for your replies. Other views are welcomed.

8

Four Hypothetical Questions

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

These are purely hypothetical, but here goes.

Two brothers are out going door to door one day and much to their surprise come upon a guy in his 50s who engage them in a religious discussion. The brothers offer to come back and conduct a Bible study and the man agrees. During the next two or three months the man likes what he hears and decides he’d like to be baptized. But he admits that he’s a colonel in the Army...a full bird! What’s more, he has only a year and a half, maybe two, before he’s eligible for retirement, and he doesn’t want to quit for fear of losing his pension and commissary privileges. What happens then?
One JW is visiting his brother at his home out West. The reason? His brother is dying and wants to tie up some loose ends. While there, the Witness notices how drawn and pale his brother looks. And his brother surprises him. Having never received a Christian baptism, he wants his brother to baptize him in his swimming pool outside. He’s not so much interested in being baptized into the WTBTS, but he wants to be baptized unto Christ. He declares that he doesn’t have any views, pro or con, about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but he does believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the author of his salvation. When asked his views on the Trinity, his brother says it never made much sense to him, but that he believes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be distinct beings and one in purpose. So, after giving it some thought, the Witness decides to baptize his brother according to his wishes. Several days later he passes away surrounded by his family. Has this JW committed any sins in baptizing his brother? Would he be disciplined for it? And oh yeah, would the JWs recognize the baptism as being legitimate?
Same question as 2) but...the JW considers himself to be of the “Heavenly” class, has partaken of the emblems for a number of years and believes he, by rights, is one of the members of the faithful and discreet slave, and has the authority to distribute spiritual food to those on the earth with a need. Does this make a difference?
Little Jimmy is 14 years old and wants to be baptized. He talks to the elders and satisfies them that he’s a worthy candidate. But he wants his father to baptize him. Can he do it?

----------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve seen videos of mass baptisms and there are a number of brothers in the pools or fonts and people are lined up. Some are baptizing while others are taking a break and waiting to take over when someone else needs a break. Who are these guys? Elders, brothers, a combo of the two? Can a brother baptize others without the permission of the church, because, last I heard, the WBTS didn’t exactly consider itself a “church.”

Sometimes you have large fonts with many people. Other times you take what you get.

This is a much larger affair. The woman (see arrow), seconds later, leaps into the pool, has a quick chat
with some of the authorities, then exits the font without being baptized. When it rains, it pours!

27

Does fear of death equate to need for God?

by Monsieur in

read a very interesting opinion article on cnn last night.

"why i raise my kids without god".. .

the writer aluded to the fear of the possibility of one's life ending forever (along with our beloved children's).

Cold Steel

Every religion has its problems, even atheism. But yes, death does play a decisive role...at least I think.

Several years ago, I was sitting in a waiting room of a physical therapist. I suddenly became aware of an elderly woman sitting nearby, and she was sobbing loudly. An Asian therapist sat next to her and though I couldn't hear her, I heard her. She kept repeating, "I don't want to die!" It startled me how someone could fear death so much. Having read a number of near death experiences in my time, I thought to myself, when it happens, you won't have a thing to say about it...and it will happen so naturally and quickly that (once it happens) you'll wonder what all the fuss was about!

One of the greatest fears those who pass through the veil have is whether they will face judgment and hell. Some people are good, decent, honorable people who just had no time or interest in religion. For many, their passing will suddenly be fraught with fear and doubt. I've wondered what Jehovah's Witnesses and other "adventists" will think once they pass. For most of their lives they've believed in that abomnible soul sleeping doctrine, and I wonder what their thoughts will be when they see their own bodies nearby and realize that they're not sleeping?

My grandmother feared death, mostly because one of her daughters was a Jehovah's Witness and kept sending her articles about when you die you become bug food. I suppose my aunt was trying to scare her into the "Truth," but it didn't work. My grandmother was too old and she was bound that she was going to share her late husband's fate, whatever that might be. But she feared death because it meant not existing. Fortunately, I was there to offer a more positive message, and when she died, my only regret was that the last person she saw in life was Dan Rather! She died while watching the news.

Do atheists have a greater fear of dying that those who are religious? Who knows? Often what they and what they actually feel can be quite different, especially at the end. (I rather enjoyed the story of the monster Stalin shaking his fist above him and screaming in terror just before he went to his just reward.) But what about JWs? As they approach death, do they suddenly fear the gaping grave and cold dirt waiting to receive them? And as discussed elsewhere, even if they're right, God may recreate a person, but is it the person or is it Memorex?

The Watchtower articles tout the soul sleeping doctrine as something that should be of immense comfort to those facing death, but why? Once they cease to exist, what the hell difference does it make whether they're revived or not? It's like the attitude of a real cynic, who put on his gravestone: "I was not. I was. I am not. I care not." Ouch!

23

Have YOU Had a SUPERNATURAL Experience?

by Cold Steel in

regardless of your religious background, how many of you have had any type of a paranormal or supernatural experience, good or bad?.

i've known a number of people who have tried ouija boards.

most had just creepy feelings, but one had a nasty experience.

Cold Steel

Ever watch those paranormal shows on cable?

One method they use to talk to the spirits is to take several Inova LED flashlights and twist the backs until the light turns on, then they back it off until the light just turns off. You can then shake the light and it will stay off. But these guys put the flashlights on a table or a bed, then ask the spirits questions. And more often than not, the damn things work! Spirits can flash once for no and twice for yes.

Like I said, I have a number of lights just like the ones they use (I'm a flashaholic). I've prepared my lights like they do theirs and I don't ask questions; I just sit and watch. And they can stay like that until judgment day and not go on and off. They don't even flicker! The camera on the show shows the entire flashlight, so I know someone's not messing with it from the rear. But I can't replicate their results. If I back off on the switch until exact moment the light goes out, it doesn't come back on until I twist it again. So it is impressive.

I don't recommend that anyone try communicating with spirits, but the light thing is spooky. They now have a device they can use that's a bit more sophisticated. It has a limited vocabulary of words and the results always seem to be intelligent. The thing that amazes me is that these guys believe everything a spirit tells them. These same guys who most likely wouldn't cash my check will believe a spirit pawning itself off as a child trapped by a more powerful spirit who had abused it in mortality. Anyone who believes in a God would be able to figure out that such a scenario is impossible. Once an innocent dies in mortality, it is beyond the other spirit's power forever.

15

THE SLAVE WHO LIVED TO SEE THE SIGN !!!!!!

by DATA-DOG in

chapter 17 " god's kingdom has approached " 1973 .

highlights and ( domestics ) added.

21 although raising the question about the "faithful and discreet slave," jesus was in no doubt about who this "slave" was.

Cold Steel

There's the literal Israel and then there's the spiritual Israel. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the "spiritual" Israel. So..........

Anytime you see a prophecy that refers to "Judah" or "Jerusalem" or "Israel," think "Jehovah's Witnesses" and "New York," particularly as they pertain to Armageddon. The "beast" in Revelation -- the one who's supposed to come down on Judah and Jerusalem in the battle of Armegeddon (see Zechariah 12-14) -- is actually going to be attacking the JWs and New York.

But what of the real Jerusalem and the real Jews, and the actual place name Armageddon? Mere spiritual representations! God cast off his people long ago. Now they may as well be Swedes or Chinese. Besides, Israel wasn't formed until 1947, and by then the whole spiritual representation thing had been established. It would have been embarrassing to declare "new light" and toss the ball to the Jews.

Now when Jehovah returns and his feet in that day will stand upon the Mount of Olives, which will split in twain, that will probably be the Empire State Building or maybe even the HQ building itself. If you interpreted it to be the literal Mount of Olives...well, that's why you're not allowed to interpret scripture. The slave sees all, knows all.

One thing puzzles me, though. The GB says it doesn't receive revelation, but it does claim to be a "spirit-led" organization. Once the spirit begins to lead you, though, isn't that revelation?

Yankees!

22

The term: To disfellowship in spanish congregations...

by suavojr in

in the english congregations they used to announce that brother x has been disfellowshipped.

but in the spanish congregations the announcement was made using the word expulsado (spanish)= expel in english.

when i look up the word disfellowship, this is what i found:.

Cold Steel

Is it true that if you're disfellowshiped (excommunicated) south of the Equator, then move to north of the Equator, that you're back in full faith and fellowship and vice versa?